Discussion:
TSS vs TRIMP: why the difference is important
Andrew Coggan
2005-09-23 21:05:51 UTC
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In for a penny, in for a pound, right? :-)

To evaluate the use of Dr. Eric Banister's TRIMP as the input function for the Training Manager, I dug through my files to calculate it for every workout I did this year, and then plugged it into the requisite equations. The attached graphic shows the results...and I have to admit, I am surprised at how poorly TRIMP worked in this case. Specifically, note that, as when using kilojoules, CTL as calculated using TRIMP (i.e., the blue line in the left hand panel) fails to reflect the gradual increase in training load as determined by calculating CTL from TSS (i.e., the blue line in the right hand panel). Also, for the first ~4 wk ATL as calculated using TRIMP is above CTL calculating using the same measure, resulting in TSB based on TRIMP to be distinctly positive for most of this time. In contrast, ATL as calculated using TSS is less than CTL calculated using TSS, such that TSB based on TSS is negative...which is consistent the fact that I was killing myself during this period of time with thrice-weekly level 5 and 6/7 workouts. Finally, notice that while using TRIMP instead of TSS doesn't affect the ability of the Training Manager to predict that my "form" would be high during the period leading into and immediately after master track nationals, it results in failure to anticipate the personal bests I set on 9/11 and 9/19. Specifically, TSB as based on TRIMP was either neutral or negative at this time, whereas when CTL, ATL, and TSB were calculated using TSS, TSB was clearly still positive.

As stated above, these results surprised me, given that 1) both TSS and TRIMP (but not kJ) explicitly recognize the role of training intensity in determining the overall training load, and 2) during the week I train indoors on an ergometer, in my nearly-constant 68 deg F basement with the same fan blowing air over me at the same speed all the time. Moreover, when I train outdoors on the weekends I always ride early in the morning and for 2 h or less. Thus, in my case variations in heart rate due to cardiac drift are about as small as they are ever going to be, yet when attempting to model my performance using the Training Manager TRIMP still didn't seem to work as well as TSS as a measure of my training load. Others may (or may not) eventually obtain better results, but for now at least I'm certainly glad that I use a powermeter!

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Andrew Coggan
2005-09-23 21:10:02 UTC
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Andy Coggan wrote:

(snip)

BTW, don't bother trying to compare these charts to the previous ones I
posted comparing TSS and kJ. I calculated CTL/ATL/TSB slightly
differently this time, but the same way when using TRIMP and TSS so that
a fair comparison could be made.

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Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars710.htm
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Phil Stone
2005-09-24 06:47:09 UTC
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This TRIMP system you used (normally time in Heart Rate ZONE x a factor)
will be dependant on the slope you set for the various factors & the
amount of zones used. So those zone 5 efforts should have scored massive
amounts of points. The only difference I could detect with TRIMPS & TSS
is that TSS scores a fair bit lower for Crits, sustained Z3 & a lot
higher for recovery rides. But this all is dependant on how you set up
your trimps FACTORS.

Regards Phil

***@tacx-video.com
tacx-video
tacx


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Coggan [mailto:***@earthlink.net]
Sent: 23 September 2005 23:03
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: [Wattage] TSS vs TRIMP: why the difference is important

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In for a penny, in for a pound, right? :-)

To evaluate the use of Dr. Eric Banister's TRIMP as the input function
for the Training Manager, I dug through my files to calculate it for
every workout I did this year, and then plugged it into the requisite
equations. The attached graphic shows the results...and I have to admit,
I am surprised at how poorly TRIMP worked in this case. Specifically,
note that, as when using kilojoules, CTL as calculated using TRIMP
(i.e., the blue line in the left hand panel) fails to reflect the
gradual increase in training load as determined by calculating CTL from
TSS (i.e., the blue line in the right hand panel). Also, for the first
~4 wk ATL as calculated using TRIMP is above CTL calculating using the
same measure, resulting in TSB based on TRIMP to be distinctly positive
for most of this time. In contrast, ATL as calculated using TSS is less
than CTL calculated using TSS, such that TSB based on TSS is
negative...which is consistent the fact that I was killing myself during
this period of time with thrice-weekly level 5 and 6/7 workouts.
Finally, notice that while using TRIMP instead of TSS doesn't affect the
ability of the Training Manager to predict that my "form" would be high
during the period leading into and immediately after master track
nationals, it results in failure to anticipate the personal bests I set
on 9/11 and 9/19. Specifically, TSB as based on TRIMP was either neutral
or negative at this time, whereas when CTL, ATL, and TSB were calculated
using TSS, TSB was clearly still positive.

As stated above, these results surprised me, given that 1) both TSS and
TRIMP (but not kJ) explicitly recognize the role of training intensity
in determining the overall training load, and 2) during the week I train
indoors on an ergometer, in my nearly-constant 68 deg F basement with
the same fan blowing air over me at the same speed all the time.
Moreover, when I train outdoors on the weekends I always ride early in
the morning and for 2 h or less. Thus, in my case variations in heart
rate due to cardiac drift are about as small as they are ever going to
be, yet when attempting to model my performance using the Training
Manager TRIMP still didn't seem to work as well as TSS as a measure of
my training load. Others may (or may not) eventually obtain better
results, but for now at least I'm certainly glad that I use a
powermeter!

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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Jerry’s® or Häagen-Dazs® ice cream for participating!
http://click.topica.com/caadVYQa84vPjbec5CEf/Ice Cream Research Survey
-------------------------------------------------------------------

FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars7
10.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

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FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars710.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
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Robert Chung
2005-09-24 07:12:50 UTC
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Post by Andrew Coggan
(snip)
BTW, don't bother trying to compare these charts to the previous ones I
posted comparing TSS and kJ. I calculated CTL/ATL/TSB slightly
differently this time, but the same way when using TRIMP and TSS so that
a fair comparison could be made.
Loading Image...

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FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars710.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
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Andrew Coggan
2005-09-26 14:42:19 UTC
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Post by Phil Stone
This TRIMP system you used (normally time in Heart Rate ZONE x a factor)
That might be how Polar "scores" a workout, but that isn't how you
calculate TRIMP. Calling it such just creates unneeded confusion, much
the same way Friel's use of the term "critical power" has tended to
muddy the waters.

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FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars710.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
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Phil Stone
2005-09-26 14:53:21 UTC
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So you just used average heart rate?

Regards Phil

***@tacx-video.com
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tacx


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Coggan [mailto:***@earthlink.net]
Sent: 26 September 2005 16:42
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: [Wattage] TSS vs TRIMP: why the difference is important

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Post by Phil Stone
This TRIMP system you used (normally time in Heart Rate ZONE x a factor)
That might be how Polar "scores" a workout, but that isn't how you
calculate TRIMP. Calling it such just creates unneeded confusion, much
the same way Friel's use of the term "critical power" has tended to
muddy the waters.

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars7
10.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

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FAQ: http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm
Links to other wattage site:
Andy Coggan's Power Profiling -
http://www.pdqcleveland.org/power.htm
http://www.schererfamily.com/Joisey_Scherers/Chris/cycling/polar/polars710.htm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern
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